Darrell Bock: Welcome to The Table where we
discuss issues related to God and culture. I’m Darrell Bock, executive director for cultural
engagement at the Howard G. Hendricks Center for Christian Leadership and Cultural Engagement,
and our topic today is spousal abuse. And I have two guests with me, and I’m going
to let them introduce themselves so that they can lay out their professional credentials
and expertise as it relates to this topic. And, Gary, we’ll start with you. Gary Barnes: Okay. Thank you, Darrell. So I am a faculty member here with you at
Dallas Seminary. I’m a professor of the biblical counseling
program. I also have a part-time private practice. I’m a licensed psychologist and specialize
in marriage and family. Darrell Bock: All right. Debby Wade: And I’m Debby Wade, and I am also
a marriage and family therapist and a licensed professional counselor. And I specialize in working with intimacy
issues and couples, marital work. I work with all ages, children, teens, women
and men. I have a private practice that I founded in
1999, called ACTSolutions, which stands for Authentic Christian Therapeutic Solutions. Darrell Bock: Oh, wow, okay. Well, that’s cool. I mean I think of acts, I think of something
else. So that’s great. Well, we’re going to take a look and talk
our way through – as a way of working with the topic – a video that Gary has supplied
that talks about spousal abuse. And I’m going to let Gary introduce the video,
and then we’re going to take a look at the first clip. And we’re going to divide this up into five
parts and take a look at the issues that it raises and use that as kind of a launching
point for what we’re going to do. Gary Barnes: Yes. We, right at the beginning, would want to
say a very special word of thanks to the Faith and Trust Institute in Seattle, Washington,
who’s given us permission to use their taping. And we really want to commend their work to
everyone. And they’re a great resource. Faithtrustinstitute.org would be a great website
for them to follow up on. And so one of the things that’s really striking
about the research on domestic violence is four independent sociological studies, looking
at all different subgroups in our country, have identified that conservative Protestant
groups are the leading group where this is a problem. Darrell Bock: Wow. Now, what are – now, you said there are four
groups, so what would those others be? Gary Barnes: No, four different studies. Darrell Bock: Oh, four different studies. Okay. Gary Barnes: Looking at other Christian groups,
as well as non-Christian groups. Darrell Bock: I see. Gary Barnes: Now, at the same time, the other
side of the coin is is that conservative Protestant groups would be the people who would be most
against domestic violence. And so this is a great secret that is really
kept in our circle. And it’s one that, of all groups, we need
to really pay special attention to. Darrell Bock: Well, my hope is is to talk
our way through this and also give people practical advice if they are in such a situation
or, perhaps also, just as importantly, if they know someone who’s in such a situation. So we’ll do that as we proceed through the
video. So we’ll take a look here at the first clip
which introduces some statistics and also introduces the person who is the focus of
the video. Video Darrell Bock: All right. Well, that’s the opening story. How common is it that people – that people
think they can – I would say get away with stuff or be – how common is it that it is
kept secret? Debby Wade: I’m sorry. I’m stumbling a minute in responding to that. I think it’s fairly common that, because of
the shame and the guilt that’s there, that the victim would feel too much fear to share. And I think that when the batterer – or whether
it’s a physical or psychological abuser – with the control that they have, I think they feel
fairly confident that the one that they are battering will not tell the secret. And I think they come back and use other tactics
to control that are nice and loving, or they appear to be nice and loving, but done in
a way that’s very controlling. And so I think the abuser feels very confident
that they control the victim from telling. Darrell Bock: Now, the key word is the word
“control.” Gary Barnes: Yes. Darrell Bock: So let’s talk about that. What exactly is going on when this type of
situation takes place? Gary Barnes: You know a lot of people who
are just kind of maybe thinking about this for the first time – it hasn’t been a part
of their experience – they might think that, “Oh, this is just like out-of-control anger.” And this is a very, very different problem
than that. That is a problem as well, but this is a distinct
– this is actually all about control. It’s not about being out of control. It’s very calculated. It even is intermixed with positive things,
like bringing flowers home and being nice, kind of a honeymoon period, which then will
flip. And then it’s about being abusive. But the abuse is about controlling. It’s about keeping one subject. Darrell Bock: Um-hmm. And so the violence by which one manages the
relationship. Gary Barnes: Yes. Debby Wade: Um-hmm. Gary Barnes: Yes, totally. And so that’s why that 28 percent statistic
is most likely a very low number, because so much of this will go unreported. Darrell Bock: Okay. So we’ve got, on the one hand, this theme
of – this usually is kept under wraps. And, on the other hand, it also is about control. So this leads us into thinking through how
spouse abuse kind of works itself out. So let’s go to the next clip and see what
is coming at us next. Video Darrell Bock: Okay. That’s about the way in which control works. I do have a question that I think should be
raised here at the start. And that is when we talk about spousal abuse,
how should we actually define it? Does it have to be physical? The reason I raise the question is is that
the psychologist in the piece said sometimes it’s a look. Now, I sit there and I go, “Okay, I’ve done
that. Am I an abuser?” So let’s talk about defining what it is that
we’re talking about. What is – what exactly do we mean? And are we dealing with a spectrum? What’s going on here? Debby Wade: Certainly, much abuse can just
be psychological and emotional. You know I think as she was talking about
if she showed anger or showed any sort of emotional response, he controlled it with
either a look or maybe his behavior or a certain stance, even maybe without hitting her. And so I think when we think of psychological
and emotional abuse, it is done in such a way that, again, the victim can’t have a sense
of self, but they have to give up their self to be whoever it is that the abuser is controlling
them to be. And so I think many women where – and they
come in, and they’re crushed and have no idea of their own identity, it’s often that they’re
in a psychologically or emotional abusive situation. Darrell Bock: So we shouldn’t think of this
– even though we can talk about domestic violence or spousal abuse, in some ways spouse abuse
may be a better term than domestic violence because we would think, “Well, if it’s not
violent then it’s not abuse.” Gary Barnes: That would be, yeah, a very misleading
way of thinking about it. If it’s only physical abuse, then anything
else is okay. And that’s totally wrong. Darrell Bock: Yeah. Now, I think the background here – probably
a good point to bring in a little bit of the Bible to think about what spousal responsibilities
are in marriage. And, of course, the spousal responsibilities
that the Scripture lays out is that these are two people who are supposed to love one
another and nurture one another. Certainly there’s a major responsibility on
the part of the husband in the house in Ephesians 5 and texts like this, for the husband to
be – to care for the wife as Christ does for the church. Gary Barnes: Right. Darrell Bock: So there’s a nurturing and a
supportive element. So this abuse, obviously, runs smack dab into
that kind of modeling. Is that correct? Gary Barnes: Yeah. This is actually totally contrary to the heart
of God on relationships. And I would see that the big theme there would
be relationships of those who are followers of Christ, unlike those – the gentiles or
those who aren’t the followers of Christ. It’s characterized by a oneness that’s not
based in sameness. See. And what did Paul say about the gentiles? When they bumped into their conflicts and
problems, they lorded over one another. There’s the use of self-serving power that
he says is not to be a part of those relationships for people who are followers of Christ. And so, there’s this sense of mutuality, a
submitting one to another out of reverence to Christ – Ephesians 5:21 – that really sets
the whole tone before we get into the distinct and separate roles and responsibilities. Darrell Bock: So rather than having a model
that’s highlighting power and control, where one person’s controlling the other, we really
have a mutuality in service that’s supposed to be going on that’s helping people grow
as people in the context of their marriage relationship. I mean we tend to view marriage sometimes
as a social context or something like that, or maybe, in a utilitarian kind of way, of
meeting my needs. But actually marriage is much more profound
than that, isn’t it? Debby Wade: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know what I find is interesting is that
passage that you all were just speaking of, Ephesians 5. I think 21 through about 33 is where he’s
talking about marriage. But that’s, I think, often the most misused
Scripture on man being the headship of the wife and that it being interpreted in a very
wrong way. Darrell Bock: Because the term, “submission,”
is in the text. Debby Wade: Because the – yes, and that the
husband should be the headship. And so I believe often, maybe even churches
unknowingly support a woman staying in an abusive marriage based on that passage. And the husband often feels justified, not
recognizing the distortion that has – they’ve taken the message and distorted it in such
a way. Darrell Bock: You know I have students do
an exercise when I teach Ephesians. And what I do is I have them take a sheet
of paper, and on one side I have them put a column for power, and on the other side
I have them put a column for service. And I have them list all the times power is
evoked in that passage and all the times images of service are evoked in that passage. And I give them about five minutes to read
through the passage and make the list. And when it’s all done, it’s interesting because
the best you can do on the power side, the best you can do is to put the term, “head.” And that’s it. Everything else is on the service or nurturing
or caring side of the equation, to which my point becomes, well, if head is the only thing
that goes on the power side, but everything else is defining service and care and nurturing,
then maybe the headship is about service and care and nurturing as well. And so we shouldn’t read it as a power – as
a power play at all. And so the way the entire passage is framed
helps us to understand what’s going on in the passage. Gary Barnes: Yeah, I’d say the two big correctives
on that is head shouldn’t be on the power side in terms of negative power. It should be on the power side in terms of
positive power. Darrell Bock: Right. Gary Barnes: And that’s the other corrective
is that there’s nothing more powerful than love, see. But it’s not a self-serving power. Darrell Bock: Right, which is why the image
of Jesus’ sacrifice that’s written in the passage because that is the door through which
you’re walking. Gary Barnes: I think we’re talking about the
main reason why the Protestant has the greatest frequency of occurrence of spousal abuse,
and that’s because this becomes ammo. This use of the term, “head,” becomes ammo
for living like the gentiles do. This is my ticket for having you be controlled
by me. Debby Wade: Right. Gary Barnes: And, therefore, your role is
to let me control you. Darrell Bock: So it’s not only spousal abuse
– I might have a little fun here – it’s not only spousal abuse, but it’s abuse of the
concept of headship – Gary Barnes: That’s right. Debby Wade: Yes. Darrell Bock: -in a serious kind of way. And it is a complete, as we said, distortion
of what that passage is striving for. If the picture is Christ sacrificing himself,
being our Savior, nurturing and caring, that’s one element of it. Another picture I like to use, since we’re
still talking biblically, is the picture of oneness. And I like to say to couples – I do this in
what little premarital counseling I do – I’ll say to them, “You know God has made you into
one. Well, what that means is is that when you’re
a famous marital discussion where there’s not unity about what’s to be done, that when
you’re spouse is speaking to you, you should hear it like it’s your own voice talking,
that they’re a part of you and you’re a part of them. And so even though it’s coming at you from
an angle you may not expect, the respect and the attention that you give to is if you were
speaking as a part of yourself. Because, in God’s eyes, you are a unit and
you need to think of yourself that way.” Is that a helpful way to think about this? Gary Barnes: Yeah, I think that in terms of
there is a us, that’s the one, the us. It’s not like the joke during the wedding
when the minister says, “And the two shall be one.” And then the one guys leans over to the other
guy, a buddy sitting in the audience, and says, “Yeah, but which one.” Darrell Bock: Yeah. Gary Barnes: See it’s not where one disappears
– Darrell Bock: That’s right. Gary Barnes: – for the other so that they
can be one. So that’s – it’s two whole people, two separate
identities, distinct, making choices together that cultivate the third identity of the us. And in spousal abuse situations, that’s not
the working model. Darrell Bock: Okay. One person’s being completely suppressed. Gary Barnes: That’s exactly right. Darrell Bock: Now, Debby, let me ask you,
from the female point of view, because it said 95 percent of these situations are males
against females, unless we’re dealing with an Amazon marriage, we really aren’t – we
aren’t dealing with a woman, generally speaking, doing this to a man. What do you tend to see when someone comes
in in this kind of situation from the female perspective? What do you – Debby Wade: When the female’s the victim. Darrell Bock: Right. Debby Wade: Yeah. Typically, like I said, worn out, exhausted,
feeling that they have no sense of worth, no sense of self, questions whether they have
anything to offer or of value. And then scared to death to even, in my office,
to be sharing for fear that if anything were to come out that then the abuse would get
worse. Fear of being able to leave it because they’ve
been made to feel that they cannot make it on their own. And I think another term that – or statement
that often is quoted, the abuse will often say, “No one will love you as good as I love
you.” And they will believe that. And so then, “If this is me being loved as
good as I’m going to loved, then how could I survive out there and be loved any less
or any worse?” And so there’s that real mental and emotional
damage that’s done to the soul and to the spirit as well. Darrell Bock: And so one of the factors that
comes into this as the person is wrestling with this is just the fear of the unknown
or pulling or getting some distance in the situation just to get their hands around it,
which can be very, very difficult because the person could feel like they’re going to
be isolated and on their own and not able to deal with this. And in some states where laws very much favor
the husband in the relationship – I don’t know how else to put it. I have a relative – I’ve got several relatives
who’ve gone through a divorce, but one in particular I’m thinking of where the spouse
was a wife who had opted out of a situation involving alcohol abuse. And the difficulty of being willing to create
that distance because of the uncertainty of what’s on the other side also becomes a holding
– element that creates a holding pattern in the relationship. Is that common? Gary Barnes: Yeah. And that’s all part of the control mechanism,
is to lead the other spouse to believe that things would be worse if they tried to move
outside of this relationship. Darrell Bock: Okay, well the next – go ahead
– Debby Wade: Can I say something real quick? Gary Barnes: Yes, go ahead. Debby Wade: I have worked with a couple of
couples that it has been the man who’s been the victim. And, in some ways, that has even been more
difficult because how many men stand up and go, “Yeah, I’m being beaten up and raged at
by my wife,” to be believed in as the victim? It’s like, “Yeah, well, what are you causing
to – you know, to cause her to do that?” or, “Surely you can stop that.” And they’ve had to resort to calling the police. Darrell Bock: Wow. Debby Wade: And it’s only when police are
willing to put the woman in handcuffs and take them away is when the men are validated
or, “Okay, I really was abused.” Darrell Bock: Now, that’s raised an interesting
situation. When I was a student at FMU, I had to – one
of our assignments in one of our classes – it was a counseling class actually – was to ride
with the police for a day and see what they go through. And what I saw were police who were really,
really hesitant to walk into domestic violence situations and intervene. So even though, in some cases, they knew – I
mean it was repeated. I mean they knew this was a house where things
were a mess. So I’m sure with a counseling standpoint you
all have contact with police on a regular basis in these kinds of situations. What kinda limitations are they operating
under? Gary Barnes: Well, you know I have a buddy
who’s a career police officer, and he’ll say right up front, “That the last thing I ever
want to walk into is a domestic violence situation.” Because when you get in the middle of that,
it’s so unpredictable. And you have two enemies coming at you from
both directions. And so they really have a difficult task to
try to step in and intervene in the middle of that. Darrell Bock: And it actually does have to
be pretty – pretty threatening before they’ll even opt to do anything. Is that right? Gary Barnes: Oh, yeah. Darrell Bock: Okay well lets look at – we’re
talking about violence now. I think the next section we’re going to look
at is going to discuss this. Video Gary Barnes: Wow. Darrell Bock: Well, this raises a whole series
of questions. We’ve got the issue of violence on the one
hand. We’ve got, “What do you do when you hear about
this situation?” And then we’ve got the movement towards a
kind of separation to create, at best, a cooling-off situation where you can deal with this. So let’s deal with them in order. We talked already a little bit about the violence. But the idea of the right that some people
feel to control, is it one of the more difficult things unraveling why a person wants to have
so much control in a relationship and to the extent of suppressing the personhood or the
person that they’re – that they supposedly care about? Debby Wade: Right. I don’t know what you find, Dr. Barnes, but
I know that, typically, for most of the ones that I’ve worked with, there’s fear and insecurity
that are there, and so the male feels so threatened. Although he’s the intimidating – the mean,
this grouchy one, on the inside, he’s really the one that struggles with feeling insecure
in fear, and that motivates his need to control everything, almost like, “If I’m not controlling
it, it won’t happen the way I want.” Or, “If I’m not controlling it, she may get
closer to other people. If I don’t control the people she’s around,
she may like them better than me.” But such a sense of fear that kinda feeds
what he was saying, that need that, “I should be able to control this and it’s my right
to control it.” Darrell Bock: You know the irony here is that
the person is – the person who’s controlling is really manifesting incredible weakness
and incredible insecurity. Gary Barnes: And I think there’s a great sense
of being hopeless or helpless themselves, see, that really drives this sense of, “I
really need to be in control here, and I’ll -” whatever means is necessary is actually
justified. Darrell Bock: So unraveling that, it seems
to me, from me from a counseling standpoint has got to be a very complex and long-term
operation. Gary Barnes: Like I say, this is not just
negative emotions of anger that are out of control. This is deep-seated important places for them
to get awareness of that aren’t going to be a quick and easy awareness. Darrell Bock: Okay. So that’s the violence part of and the abusive
part of it. Let’s take a look at this. What do you – the practical question – what
do you do either if you’re in a situation, probably that’s one scenario, or if you know
someone who’s in this situation? Let’s start first with in the situation. And I suspect that one of the things that
you’re going to say very, very quickly is, “Don’t keep it a secret. Try and get help in one way or another.” Is that – Gary Barnes: Totally. That’s the thing that perpetuates the whole
problem is the secrecy or the sense of this is normal or this is justified. Or, in many cases, the victim actually is
led to believe that, “I am the problem. This is all because of me that this is happening.” So that has to be brought out into the open
and bright lights shined on that. Darrell Bock: So that’s to – does it make
any difference where you go do you think? Or what kind of advice – I mean though – Gary Barnes: I would imagine the way in which
this might start for someone who’s timid about coming forward is they don’t run to a counselor,
they don’t run to a pastor, but they might tell a friend. And that may or may not be good enough, depending
on how that’s enough. Fair enough. Debby Wade: Right, right. And I think each case my be different. Some people have some really good solid friends
that, “I’m going to be heard and trusted,” and they – the friend could provide maybe
a shelter in their home that they could come and have a place to go. I think if an abuser, though, has the victim
so controlled that they really don’t have any close friends, the next best option – if
they’re associated with a church – is going to someone on staff at the church I would
think, to just say, “This is what’s happening in my home. “And I know it doesn’t look like it from the
outside, but this is what’s happening in my home and it’s very scary. It doesn’t feel like a safe place to be.” I think also there’s times when absolutely
counselors are going to be needed to help with that reconciliation process if it can
even be done. Darrell Bock: Now, that raises another good
practical question, and that is the interface that happens between churches and counselors,
because sometimes churches don’t have their own internal counseling, and sometimes a pastor
may or may not feel qualified when someone walks into their office and shares something
likes this, feel comfortable or qualified to deal with this. Or the tricky part of it may be a person may
think they’re qualified to deal with this, but they may really not be. Gary Barnes: Right. Darrell Bock: And so they may bring more harm
than good to the situation. So what advice would you give to pastors and
pastoral staff for that, how to make the judgment about how involved they should be? Because this looks to me to be – once the
situation’s emerged there, they are counselor intensive, if I can say it that way. It’s not something that you have one or two
talks – Gary Barnes: That’s right. Darrell Bock: – and it’s done. This is going to take multiple get togethers
to kinda of sort your way through. So what about – Gary Barnes: My big encouragement for all
of those listening who would be in church leadership roles would be that you don’t see
or hear what we’re talking about today and see this as something that you just refer
and you don’t continue to be a part of it, because that would actually contribute to
the problem of a person being isolated from the needed support system. So they would surely need to have the right
professional care, but they really need to have their church communities come around
them in a loving way, modeling the opposite kind of submitting one to another out of reverence
to Christ. And so I would love for churches to actually
take more initiative in this area. And the way that they can do that is to even
have awareness building within their own church community, maybe even a particular Sunday
or a month or something, where they’re having local shelter leaders come in and help provide
information and education and that we can realize that just because we don’t see this,
visually, as a problem doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist within our circle. And so to give people kinda permission to
begin to talk about it is very, very important. And then someone who may be very fearful of
mentioning it might just have that much encouragement to share it. Darrell Bock: Now, how would you create that
environment? In other words, the environment in a church
that says, “We’re willing to talk about that”? What steps, practical steps could someone
have to do that? Gary Barnes: Well, I think the church should
be, of all people or groups, leading the way on correct biblical teaching about submission
and headship. So there needs to – that is just like a first
step. We’ve got to do that, okay. And then that can pave the way for, “Okay,
so what other things should we also learn related to this?” And then bringing in other mental health professionals
or people from local shelters would be great ways of having people just increase the dialog. Darrell Bock: So that’s going to involve,
obviously, the way even you illustrate and talk about the passage, the type of scenarios
that you talk about when you talk about headship or abuse of headship. Gary Barnes: Um-hmm. Darrell Bock: But that also is going to involve
maybe a topical study looking at the issues of marriage and family in which this is a
component that you talk about. And you let people know who they can contact
and where the help is available, that kind of thing. It seems to me you’ve got to – I don’t know
what other word to use. You’re almost going to have to push people
to walk into this area because of the hesitation of going there without – I mean without shoving
them. But there does need to be an acknowledgement
and openness that this is something that should be pursued. Gary Barnes: And the other big thing, Darrell,
is – I think the church needs to be stronger on – is the redemptive message of Christ. And this is a real-life situation that Christ
can be redemptive in. Think about it. If we have 28 percent of marriages that are
experiencing this – and that’s most likely underreported – and if Protestant church are
the leading group of all of the subgroups where this is characteristic of, within your
church you’re going to have one out of four to one out of three people who could be experiencing
this. Darrell Bock: In fact, the likelihood is the
person’s someone on the pew that you sit on. Gary Barnes: That’s right. Debby Wade: And we’re speaking of the spouses,
and then that’s not including the children that are impacted by this. I did work with one family that the church
that they were attending at the time, the woman was abused, mentally and emotionally,
and somewhat physically. Never anything broken or blacked or anything,
but a lot of roughness. And then she felt the dad was doing sexually
inappropriate things with the girls present. Well, the church that she was attending at
the time when she went, the staff really did not support her, did not support – believe
that this was going on, and really did not support her moving out of the house and getting
the kids’ safety. But she had a friend that was willing to let
her do that. The friend gave her my name, got the girls
into counseling, got her into counseling. And then I made some recommendations of some
other churches. And she got plugged into a women’s group,
and these women came around and supported her. They knew that she needed – the girls needed
clothes, they needed – she needed a vehicle. And among this group of Bible study women,
they provided – ended up providing a car for her because they – I mean when she left, because
the church did not support her, they encouraged the man, really, to let her leave with nothing,
and so she left with nothing. And so this other church came alongside and
really loved them. And so much so, that as these girls grew up,
when one of the girls became a teenager, ended up doing an internship with this other – with
this church. So some churches really are learning how to
come alongside and support and love and bring in the servantship of Christ, being true servants
of one another and tending to one another. And to me then, the blessing and the redeeming,
everybody gets to experience.

https://www.christiandatingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/hqdefault-6.jpghttps://www.christiandatingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/hqdefault-6-150x150.jpgcdmadminHealth & WellbeingRelationshipcounseling,dallas theological seminary,domestic violence (crime type),dts,family,marriage,spousal abuseDarrell Bock: Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues related to God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, executive director for cultural engagement at the Howard G. Hendricks Center for Christian Leadership and Cultural Engagement, and our topic today is spousal abuse. And I have two guests with me, and I'm going to...